On Oct 3, 10:17*pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> z wrote:
> > On Sep 30, 10:07 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> >> z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:51e983b0-af15-4dae-9c79-
> >> 1f01c0d4f...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> why in the world are the b16 plugs $12+ each? aren't the D16 plugs
> >>> also platinum etc.etc?
> >> You don't need platinums for the B16.
>
> >> The '90 CRX used the B16A1 engine. OEM specified plugs for that engineare
> >> the non-platinum:
> >> NGK BKR6E-N11
> >> and
> >> ND (Denso) K20PR-L11
>
> >> You should pay around 3 or 4 bucks each for them.
>
> >> --
> >> Tegger
>
> > but either of those are like $12 each at majestic honda online! d16
> > plugs are like $1.50. lordy.
>
> do you expect $100 tires to perform the same as $40 tires? *do you
> expect a $35 coolant pump to last as long as a $65 coolant pump?
>
> good spark plugs mean good ignition. *good ignition means a little more
> power and lower emissions.
>
> unless you're into recreational spark plug changing, the more expensive
> plugs with their much extended replacement interval and better
> efficiency more than pay for themselves.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

yeah, but OEM denso and NGK plugs for one Honda 4 banger vs another;
sheesh, for the price of one B16 plug I could install 6 D16 plugs and
have very good ignition of the mixture.

z wrote:
> On Oct 3, 10:17�pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> z wrote:
>>> On Sep 30, 10:07 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>>>> z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:51e983b0-af15-4dae-9c79-
>>>> 1f01c0d4f...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>>>>> why in the world are the b16 plugs $12+ each? aren't the D16 plugs
>>>>> also platinum etc.etc?
>>>> You don't need platinums for the B16.
>>>> The '90 CRX used the B16A1 engine. OEM specified plugs for that engine are
>>>> the non-platinum:
>>>> NGK BKR6E-N11
>>>> and
>>>> ND (Denso) K20PR-L11
>>>> You should pay around 3 or 4 bucks each for them.
>>>> --
>>>> Tegger
>>> but either of those are like $12 each at majestic honda online! d16
>>> plugs are like $1.50. lordy.
>> do you expect $100 tires to perform the same as $40 tires? �do you
>> expect a $35 coolant pump to last as long as a $65 coolant pump?
>>
>> good spark plugs mean good ignition. �good ignition means a little more
>> power and lower emissions.
>>
>> unless you're into recreational spark plug changing, the more expensive
>> plugs with their much extended replacement interval and better
>> efficiency more than pay for themselves.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> yeah, but OEM denso and NGK plugs for one Honda 4 banger vs another;
> sheesh, for the price of one B16 plug I could install 6 D16 plugs and
> have very good ignition of the mixture.


have you tried them?

On Oct 6, 10:26*pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> z wrote:
> > On Oct 3, 10:17 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> z wrote:
> >>> On Sep 30, 10:07 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> >>>> z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:51e983b0-af15-4dae-9c79-
> >>>> 1f01c0d4f...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> >>>>> why in the world are the b16 plugs $12+ each? aren't the D16 plugs
> >>>>> also platinum etc.etc?
> >>>> You don't need platinums for the B16.
> >>>> The '90 CRX used the B16A1 engine. OEM specified plugs for that engine are
> >>>> the non-platinum:
> >>>> NGK BKR6E-N11
> >>>> and
> >>>> ND (Denso) K20PR-L11
> >>>> You should pay around 3 or 4 bucks each for them.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Tegger
> >>> but either of those are like $12 each at majestic honda online! d16
> >>> plugs are like $1.50. lordy.
> >> do you expect $100 tires to perform the same as $40 tires? do you
> >> expect a $35 coolant pump to last as long as a $65 coolant pump?
>
> >> good spark plugs mean good ignition. good ignition means a little more
> >> power and lower emissions.
>
> >> unless you're into recreational spark plug changing, the more expensive
> >> plugs with their much extended replacement interval and better
> >> efficiency more than pay for themselves.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > yeah, but OEM denso and NGK plugs for one Honda 4 banger vs another;
> > sheesh, for the price of one B16 plug I could install 6 D16 plugs and
> > have very good ignition of the mixture.
>
> have you tried them?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

i assume those are the plugs in my engine now. i'm not even sure they
need changing, but as an old-timer guy, i feel guilty for not changing
the plugs every 6 months. my last car was one of those mitsubishi
2.6s, and I swear you could feel a difference in the engine every
time you changed the plugs, even if the old ones were about an hour
old.

z wrote:
> On Oct 6, 10:26�pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> z wrote:
>>> On Oct 3, 10:17 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> z wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 30, 10:07 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>>>>>> z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:51e983b0-af15-4dae-9c79-
>>>>>> 1f01c0d4f...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>> why in the world are the b16 plugs $12+ each? aren't the D16 plugs
>>>>>>> also platinum etc.etc?
>>>>>> You don't need platinums for the B16.
>>>>>> The '90 CRX used the B16A1 engine. OEM specified plugs for that engine are
>>>>>> the non-platinum:
>>>>>> NGK BKR6E-N11
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> ND (Denso) K20PR-L11
>>>>>> You should pay around 3 or 4 bucks each for them.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Tegger
>>>>> but either of those are like $12 each at majestic honda online! d16
>>>>> plugs are like $1.50. lordy.
>>>> do you expect $100 tires to perform the same as $40 tires? do you
>>>> expect a $35 coolant pump to last as long as a $65 coolant pump?
>>>> good spark plugs mean good ignition. good ignition means a little more
>>>> power and lower emissions.
>>>> unless you're into recreational spark plug changing, the more expensive
>>>> plugs with their much extended replacement interval and better
>>>> efficiency more than pay for themselves.- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> yeah, but OEM denso and NGK plugs for one Honda 4 banger vs another;
>>> sheesh, for the price of one B16 plug I could install 6 D16 plugs and
>>> have very good ignition of the mixture.
>> have you tried them?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> i assume those are the plugs in my engine now.

unlikely from factory.


> i'm not even sure they
> need changing, but as an old-timer guy, i feel guilty for not changing
> the plugs every 6 months.

dude, you need to get over that. unleaded gas and fuel injection and
decent plugs have cured your condition.


> my last car was one of those mitsubishi
> 2.6s, and I swear you could feel a difference in the engine every
> time you changed the plugs,

there's a reason for that. spark ignition depends on electrostatic
field. the field is more intense for sharp objects, not blunt. as a
spark plug electrode erodes, its sharp edges get blunter. the advantage
of a fine wire electrode is that it pretty much /can't/ get blunt. but
a material that can work as fine wire /and/ not quickly burn away costs
money.


> even if the old ones were about an hour
> old.

that's a driver condition, not spark plug. unless your engine is very sick.

Try the *NGK* Iridiums (not the Champion mentioned blow). These are
about $6-8 a piece, local NAPA or rockauto.com. The NGK Laser-Iridiums
are rated 120K miles in Toytoas.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...ion/index.html

"Test 3: Champion Iridium. Iridium is a favorite among many big-name
aftermarket manufacturers, exotic car OEMs and enthusiasts looking for
an extra edge. The center electrode of an iridium plug tapers to a
point as it nears its ground; the idea being that it focuses spark
energy into a narrow, more intense arc, thus increasing combustion
efficiency. These plugs narrowly made it to the dyno at all-the first
one we installed broke off in the cylinder head when we tightened it
with the specified method of a half-turn past hand-tight. While the
plugs' build quality didn't impress us much, they actually made some
power on the dyno-2.9 whp and 1.1 lb-ft of torque over the coppers!"


Of course, take their review with a grain of salt. These guys say
"platinum is a more efficient conductor than copper". Sheesh!!!! How
about silver. But I guess I'll take the number from the dyno.


On Oct 7, 8:36*am, z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote:
> i assume those are the plugs in my engine now. i'm not even sure they
> need changing, but as an old-timer guy, i feel guilty for not changing
> the plugs every 6 months. my last car was one of those mitsubishi
> 2.6s, and I swear you could feel a difference in the engine *every
> time you changed the plugs, *even if the old ones were about an hour
> old.

z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in
news:ee340eb3-25ed-4ced-ad11-374ab3d82de8@h60g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> On Oct 3, 4:04*pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>> z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote
>> innews:9c5e726c-8ab9-442d-89ef-2baaef09
> e226@u65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 30, 10:07 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>> >> z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:51e983b0-af15-4dae-9c79-
>> >> 1f01c0d4f...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >> > why in the world are the b16 plugs $12+ each? aren't the D16
>> >> > plugs also platinum etc.etc?
>>
>> >> You don't need platinums for the B16.
>>
>> >> The '90 CRX used the B16A1 engine. OEM specified plugs for that
>> >> engine ar
>> > e
>> >> the non-platinum:
>> >> NGK BKR6E-N11
>> >> and
>> >> ND (Denso) K20PR-L11
>>
>> >> You should pay around 3 or 4 bucks each for them.
>>
>> > but either of those are like $12 each at majestic honda online! d16
>> > plugs are like $1.50. lordy.
>>
>> What are the brands and part numbers you're being quoted for each
>> type?
>>
>>
>
> D16 plugs:
> (ZFR5J-11) (NGK) 2.18
> (KJ16CR-L11) (DENSO) 2.18
> (ZFR6J-11) (NGK) 2.18
> (KJ20CR-L11) (DENSO) 2.18
>
> B16 plugs:
> (PK20PR-L13) (DENSO) 12.47
> (PFR6L-13) (NGK) 12.66



You're comparing non-platinum plugs (D16) with platinum ones (B16).
Did you notice that?

What is your engine number? Have a look at the little flat pad on the
front of the engine, just below the head, right against the bellhousing.


--
Tegger

On Oct 13, 3:30*pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote innews:ee340eb3-25ed-4ced-ad11-374ab3d82de8@h60g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 3, 4:04*pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> >> z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote
> >> innews:9c5e726c-8ab9-442d-89ef-2baaef09
> > e...@u65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> > On Sep 30, 10:07 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> >> >> z <gzuck...@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:51e983b0-af15-4dae-9c79-
> >> >> 1f01c0d4f...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> >> > why in the world are the b16 plugs $12+ each? aren't the D16
> >> >> > plugs also platinum etc.etc?
>
> >> >> You don't need platinums for the B16.
>
> >> >> The '90 CRX used the B16A1 engine. OEM specified plugs for that
> >> >> engine ar
> >> > e
> >> >> the non-platinum:
> >> >> NGK BKR6E-N11
> >> >> and
> >> >> ND (Denso) K20PR-L11
>
> >> >> You should pay around 3 or 4 bucks each for them.
>
> >> > but either of those are like $12 each at majestic honda online! d16
> >> > plugs are like $1.50. lordy.
>
> >> What are the brands and part numbers you're being quoted for each
> >> type?
>
> > D16 plugs:
> > (ZFR5J-11) (NGK) * 2.18
> > (KJ16CR-L11) (DENSO) * 2.18
> > (ZFR6J-11) (NGK) * 2.18
> > (KJ20CR-L11) (DENSO) *2.18
>
> > B16 plugs:
> > (PK20PR-L13) (DENSO) * 12.47
> > (PFR6L-13) (NGK) * 12.66
>
> You're comparing non-platinum plugs (D16) with platinum ones (B16).
> Did you notice that?
>
> What is your engine number? Have a look at the little flat pad on the
> front of the engine, just below the head, right against the bellhousing.
>
> --
> Tegger- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

naw, didn't notice the platinum vs non; i'm not that familiar with
the NGK and denso number codes. or familiar at all, in fact. i just
ran up the engine type on the website and saw what they have for sale.
engine's a japanese B16a, 94-95 vintage. hydraulic clutch.

foo.

aforementioned japanese B16 in a 92 civic (OBD1); flunked emissions
again; last time the mechanic insisted it was the cat; of course a new
cat didn't help. CO and HC were really high, like 4 times the limit.

i've got hold of a legitimate stock US spec B16 ECU from a del sol
B16, hooked up the knock sensor and vtec sensor and so on, and it runs
very nicely, no check engine lights or stored codes.

the fact that it doesn't throw up an error code makes me think that
the O2 sensor must be feeding it the "right" results; therefore I'm
guessing that it's the O2 sensor that's befuddled? if there were any
hardware things like too much fuel from the injectors, wouldn't I get
a bad O2 sensor code?

so near, yet so far....

thanks.

the one for the temp gauge? i can find what i think are temp switches
for the ecu, but the manual talks about the temp gauge sender with a
yellow/green wire? i don't see it around the thermostat housing or the
other radiator hose connection.

on a related note, why wouldn't my engine heat up? it's never gotten
more than a bit off the pijn on the gauge since i swapped it, and i'm
on my third genuine honda thermostat, and with every thermostat i
replace, it's even more reluctant to get warm. this time the gauge
doesn't ever get off the pin. if i just let it idle it gets warm to
the touch, but not hot enough to take your hand off the valve cover.
the top radiator hose is mildlly warm but not the bottom. the coolant
in the radiator isn't flowing at all. if i rev it a little after it's
been idling a long time, i can actually get the fan to go on for a few
seconds until it cools down again. on the highway it just doesn't heat
up at all now. i'd say it sounds like a thermostat stuck open, but
like i said it's the third stat now and every time it gets worse.
genuine honda, like i said..the old stat looks OK, i haven't tested it
but it looks closed all the way around. i can think of a zillion ways
coolant flow can be blocked if the thermostat is open, but i can't
think of a way coolant flow can bypass the thermostat when it's closed
except the heater, and with the temp down no heat comes out, so no
coolant through there; with the temp full on mildly warm air comes
out)

aaagh. winter is coming. plus, i don't think this helps with my
emissions.
tia.

z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:9a6f4c42-dea1-4499-91e5-
d314a8cb0b9b@q35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> the one for the temp gauge? i can find what i think are temp switches
> for the ecu, but the manual talks about the temp gauge sender with a
> yellow/green wire? i don't see it around the thermostat housing or the
> other radiator hose connection.


The B16 has two sender units, and both of them are on the back of the head
under the distributor.

The two-wire sender is the one for the ECU. The one-wire unit is for the
dashboard gauge. Can't comment on wire colors since I have no idea what
wiring harness(es) you're working with.


>
> on a related note, why wouldn't my engine heat up? it's never gotten
> more than a bit off the pijn on the gauge since i swapped it, and i'm
> on my third genuine honda thermostat, and with every thermostat i
> replace, it's even more reluctant to get warm. this time the gauge
> doesn't ever get off the pin. if i just let it idle it gets warm to
> the touch, but not hot enough to take your hand off the valve cover.
> the top radiator hose is mildlly warm but not the bottom. the coolant
> in the radiator isn't flowing at all. if i rev it a little after it's
> been idling a long time, i can actually get the fan to go on for a few
> seconds until it cools down again. on the highway it just doesn't heat
> up at all now. i'd say it sounds like a thermostat stuck open, but
> like i said it's the third stat now and every time it gets worse.
> genuine honda, like i said..the old stat looks OK, i haven't tested it
> but it looks closed all the way around. i can think of a zillion ways
> coolant flow can be blocked if the thermostat is open, but i can't
> think of a way coolant flow can bypass the thermostat when it's closed
> except the heater, and with the temp down no heat comes out, so no
> coolant through there; with the temp full on mildly warm air comes
> out)


An infrared thermometer is a Godsend in cases like this. It tells you
what's REALLY happening with temps in various locations. And those temps
will be vastly different from location to location and surface to surface.

If your engine is truly refusing to warm up and the cooling system is in
proper shape, the only thing I can think of is that you have extremely poor
combustion. If you have poor combustion you will also have high HC
emissions plus lots of other symptoms.
Oh, and you could also have ignition timing that's severely retarded, and
all your combustion is taking place in your exhaust manifold.



>
> aaagh. winter is coming. plus, i don't think this helps with my
> emissions.



You never did give me the engine numbers I requested (much) earlier. How
badly do you really want to find a solution to this problem? You wanna just
jaw (or type) about your problems but not actually fix them?


--
Tegger